For the first time in 20 years, I sat down and read Soaring magazine, cover to
cover. Good stuff in there, all interesting. The 2 accident write-ups were hard
hitting, factual information that just might prevent a similar occurance.

George Thelen described an ASW-20 that hit the trees, I believe the tragic
accident involving an LS-8 out of Truckee, last year, happened in just this
way. A little too slow, a little too low, a strong tail gust and you're in the
trees.

Pete williams told of the tragic results of a bright new competition pilot's
attempt to learn a new launch method. The only thing I would add to this
excellent write-up is this; A pilot that starts self-launching needs to add
several items to his check-list that were formally on the tow pilots
check-list:

1. Wind and runway slope? I have seen a self-launch into a 5 knot wind, but up
hill. Pilot almost didn't make it up the hill going east out of Air Sailing.

2. Fuel, do we have enough and is the correct tank selected?

3. Density altitude, do we have enough power for this situation?

4. Engine, Is it developing full power?

5. Abort, The old 200 feet / 180 turn back won't work with a dead engine and
prop drag. better circle the airport until you have 1000 feet or so.

A great big At-a-Boy to the editor and staff of Soaring magazine.
JJ Sinclair

Ups, forgot some stuff>>>>>>>>>>>>.

The only thing I would add to this excellent write-up is that USAF survival
training is to stay with your downed aircraft unless you have a compelling
reason to leave. The aircraft is much easier to spot than a lone survivor.
Splice the antenna lead, if the radio is otherwise working.

Make use of your parachute. spread it out during the day, it's a good marker
signal. Wrap up in it at night. Use the riser lines as rope. splint a broken
leg with chute container and shroud lines, etc., etc. One could write a book on
the use of your parachute, other than for the traditional, *nylon descent*.

During daylight hours, make smoke from a small fire. During the summer, in the
California woods, you are likely to have a Forest Service spotter plane on you
in a heart beat. Don't start a forest fire, just a very small *smoke* producer.
What most of us accomplish whenever we try to light a camp fire------------Just
smoke, no flame.
JJ Sinclair

JJ:

From time to time, I have flown searches for the CAP in
Alaska. One thing that downed pilots have to remember is
that finding crashes from the air in remote areas is not as
easy as it might sound. TM..BTDT.

Anything the pilot can do on the ground to attract attention
significantly increases the chances that you will be found
sooner.

Smoky fires are great. Something in that glider will burn
with lots of smoke. Busted gear doors, whatever. Look around
and see what suitable bits of fiberglass or tire are handy.

Small signal mirrors work great as well when the sun is out
and can be highly directional. MG pilots may have them for
checking prop retraction. Other pilots should consider
carrying one. They are small and light.

Pete
Anchorage

JJ Sinclair wrote:

> During daylight hours, make smoke from a small fire. During the summer, in the
> California woods, you are likely to have a Forest Service spotter plane on you
> in a heart beat. Don't start a forest fire, just a very small *smoke* producer.
> What most of us accomplish whenever we try to light a camp fire------------Just
> smoke, no flame.
> JJ Sinclair

--

Peter D. Brown
http://home.gci.net/~pdb/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akmtnsoaring/

"Pete Brown" > wrote in message
...
> JJ:
>
> From time to time, I have flown searches for the CAP in
> Alaska. One thing that downed pilots have to remember is
> that finding crashes from the air in remote areas is not as
> easy as it might sound. TM..BTDT.
>
> Anything the pilot can do on the ground to attract attention
> significantly increases the chances that you will be found
> sooner.
>
> Smoky fires are great. Something in that glider will burn
> with lots of smoke. Busted gear doors, whatever. Look around
> and see what suitable bits of fiberglass or tire are handy.
>
> Small signal mirrors work great as well when the sun is out
> and can be highly directional. MG pilots may have them for
> checking prop retraction. Other pilots should consider
> carrying one. They are small and light.
>
> Pete
> Anchorage
>

> Peter D. Brown
> http://home.gci.net/~pdb/
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akmtnsoaring/
>
>


OK, down and lost:

Plan A. Grab cell phone and dial crew - give coordinates from handheld GPS.
Plan B. Grab cell phone and call 911 - give coordinates from handheld GPS.
Plan C. Grab handheld radio and yell for help on 121.5MHz. - give
coordinates from handheld GPS.
Plan D If plan A, B or C doesn't work, set up camp. It's going to be a
long night.

Bill Daniels

Bill: Cell phones are the best bet if you have a signal. I
some places out west and up north, that can be a problem.
121.5 is great but perhaps a better 1st call from the
handheld would be to the ATC center frequency that serves
your area. (Its a good idea to write it down on the
kneeboard before you launch that day.)

Even in the most remote spots of Alaska you can nearly
always raise an airliner on the way to Europe from the west
coast or Asia. Works in Nevada too.

However, how you get the KAL crew to understand English is
beyond the scope of this discussion.

Bill Daniels wrote:

> OK, down and lost:
>
> Plan A. Grab cell phone and dial crew
> Plan B. Grab cell phone and call 911
> Plan C. Grab handheld radio and yell for help on 121.5MHz. - give
> coordinates from handheld GPS.
> Plan D If plan A, B or C doesn't work, set up camp. It's going to be a
> long night.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

--

Peter D. Brown
http://home.gci.net/~pdb/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akmtnsoaring/

(JJ Sinclair) wrote in message >...
> Ups, forgot some stuff>>>>>>>>>>>>.

One thing you didn't mention was an emergency locator transmitter
(ELT). Small low cost units are readily available. There have been
crashes that the pilot survived, only to die before a search party
could be organized and the pilot located.

>
> The only thing I would add to this excellent write-up is that USAF survival
> training is to stay with your downed aircraft unless you have a compelling
> reason to leave. The aircraft is much easier to spot than a lone survivor.
> Splice the antenna lead, if the radio is otherwise working.
>
> Make use of your parachute. spread it out during the day, it's a good marker
> signal. Wrap up in it at night. Use the riser lines as rope. splint a broken
> leg with chute container and shroud lines, etc., etc. One could write a book on
> the use of your parachute, other than for the traditional, *nylon descent*.
>
> During daylight hours, make smoke from a small fire. During the summer, in the
> California woods, you are likely to have a Forest Service spotter plane on you
> in a heart beat. Don't start a forest fire, just a very small *smoke* producer.
> What most of us accomplish whenever we try to light a camp fire------------Just
> smoke, no flame.

You will need someway of starting the fire, such as matches. In a
pinch you could short the battery with a small gage wire (if the wire
is stranded use a single strand). A small gage wire has more
resistance and will heat up more than a larger gage (which is what a
fuse is).

Also, are you dressed to spend the night in the mountains? It gets
cold up there.

Tom

old CDs.. like all those that AOL gives away free.. make great signaling
mirrors in your landout kit.

never ever leave your airplane unless it is 1) on fire (signaling done for
you), 2) its going to fall on you, 3) it's going to fall off a cliff

he found a clearing.. and I'm guessing his parachute was white.... and not
blaze orange.. granted he did not have to use his chute and was concerned
about using it as his $1000 signaling device (cheap insurance)

a lot of people don't realize.. you can see things you cannot walk to
because of roaring streams or cliffs in the way

great article though..

BT

"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> Ups, forgot some stuff>>>>>>>>>>>>.
>
> The only thing I would add to this excellent write-up is that USAF
survival
> training is to stay with your downed aircraft unless you have a compelling
> reason to leave. The aircraft is much easier to spot than a lone survivor.
> Splice the antenna lead, if the radio is otherwise working.
>
> Make use of your parachute. spread it out during the day, it's a good
marker
> signal. Wrap up in it at night. Use the riser lines as rope. splint a
broken
> leg with chute container and shroud lines, etc., etc. One could write a
book on
> the use of your parachute, other than for the traditional, *nylon
descent*.
>
> During daylight hours, make smoke from a small fire. During the summer, in
the
> California woods, you are likely to have a Forest Service spotter plane on
you
> in a heart beat. Don't start a forest fire, just a very small *smoke*
producer.
> What most of us accomplish whenever we try to light a camp
fire------------Just
> smoke, no flame.
> JJ Sinclair

In article >, (JJ
Sinclair) writes:

>During daylight hours, make smoke from a small fire.

The hunter that did this in San Diego 2 weeks ago was rescued, the 300 homes he
burned could not be rescued.

Steve

in article , Steve Bralla at
wrote on 2003/11/09 20:34:

>> During daylight hours, make smoke from a small fire.
>
> The hunter that did this in San Diego 2 weeks ago was rescued, the 300 homes
> he burned could not be rescued.

Too bad those homeowners didn't follow the recommendaions that have been
issued for years now, and cut back the brush and trees around their homes.

Do your best to contain your small signal fire, but don't be afraid to use
one. The gunners have a saying: "Better to be judged by twelve than carried
by six." And that applies here, too.



Jack
----
"You'll never go hungry in America as long as you have a
gun and there's a 7/11 open!" -- Richard Pryor, Comedian

>
>Even in the most remote spots of Alaska you can nearly
>always raise an airliner on the way to Europe

Hi Pete,
I did that once in Nevada. Didn't know the frequency, so just switched around
until I heard an airliner talking to center. When the conversation stopped, I
called and said, " American 101, this is glider JJ, do you read?" Go ahead
replied American 101. Would you please switch to 123.5 and call JJ Ground? The
message is; JJ has landed at South West Gas. "You got it JJ". After a couple of
minutes, "They got it JJ".
Thanks to all the airline *relay* pilots out there.


JJ Sinclair

>However, how you get the KAL crew to understand English is
>beyond the scope of this discussion.

KAL is Dutch and I have never met a Dutch person who does not speak prefect
English. also all international crews have to speak English.

Shaber CJ wrote:
>>However, how you get the KAL crew to understand English is
>>beyond the scope of this discussion.
>
>
> KAL is Dutch and I have never met a Dutch person who does not speak prefect
> English. also all international crews have to speak English.

KLM is Dutch and, yes, their english is, without exception, excellent.
KAL is Korean Air Lines. Their skills in the language are..... varied.

Tony

>KLM is Dutch and, yes, their english is, without exception, excellent.
>KAL is Korean Air Lines. Their skills in the language are..... varied.

"Never mind"

"Shaber CJ" > wrote in message
...
> >KLM is Dutch and, yes, their english is, without exception, excellent.
> >KAL is Korean Air Lines. Their skills in the language are..... varied.
>
> "Never mind"

What's that in 'prefect' English?

:-)

Ian

KLM is Dutch and they generally speak very good English. KAL
is Korean Air Line and they generally do not speak English
as well as the Dutch.

Here in Alaska, we have had numerous and repeated problems
with KAL crews either not complying with or not
understanding ATC commands in English, not withstanding the
FAA and international requirements.

Most recently (that I am personally aware of) was a KAL
crew that pulled onto a taxi way, to the horror of the
tower, and proceeded to take off. The taxi way was
significantly shorter however the crew managed to get it
into the air, despite blasting through the snow berm at the
end of the taxiway. Calls from the tower were ignored.

Pete

Shaber CJ wrote:
>>However, how you get the KAL crew to understand English is
>>beyond the scope of this discussion.
>
>
> KAL is Dutch and I have never met a Dutch person who does not speak prefect
> English. also all international crews have to speak English.

--

Peter D. Brown
http://home.gci.net/~pdb/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akmtnsoaring/

Doesn't get KAL once a while get shot down and then changes its name?

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Pete Brown" > a écrit dans le message de
...
> KLM is Dutch and they generally speak very good English. KAL
> is Korean Air Line and they generally do not speak English
> as well as the Dutch.
>
> Here in Alaska, we have had numerous and repeated problems
> with KAL crews either not complying with or not
> understanding ATC commands in English, not withstanding the
> FAA and international requirements.
>
> Most recently (that I am personally aware of) was a KAL
> crew that pulled onto a taxi way, to the horror of the
> tower, and proceeded to take off. The taxi way was
> significantly shorter however the crew managed to get it
> into the air, despite blasting through the snow berm at the
> end of the taxiway. Calls from the tower were ignored.
>
> Pete
>
> Shaber CJ wrote:
> >>However, how you get the KAL crew to understand English is
> >>beyond the scope of this discussion.
> >
> >
> > KAL is Dutch and I have never met a Dutch person who does not speak
prefect
> > English. also all international crews have to speak English.
>
> --
>
> Peter D. Brown
> http://home.gci.net/~pdb/
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akmtnsoaring/
>
>
>

> I have never met a Dutch person who does not speak prefect
> English.

I suppose that you've never gone into a small town and try to strike up
a conversation with the local grocer :-). I know what you mean, though.
When I go back to visit and go into a store, I'll speak Dutch to the
clerk. More often than not, they'll answer me in English. It seems that
I've developed a noticable American accent. It really ticks me off,
though :-).

Tony V.

Jack > writes:

>
>>> During daylight hours, make smoke from a small fire.
>>
>> The hunter that did this in San Diego 2 weeks ago was rescued, the 300
>homes
>> he burned could not be rescued.
>
>Too bad those homeowners didn't follow the recommendaions that have been
>issued for years now, and cut back the brush and trees around their homes.
>
It's hard to do this when the "brush and trees" around your home is your
neighbors home.

>Do your best to contain your small signal fire, but don't be afraid to use
>one. The gunners have a saying: "Better to be judged by twelve than carried
>by six." And that applies here, too.
>
This "small signal fire" grew to burn 10% of San Diego county. He was in no
danger of being "carried by six". He was only in danger of walking a few miles
in the dark or having to spend the night outside. A signal fire may be an OK
idea sometimes, but if you aren't smart enough to not get lost how can you be
smart enough to keep your fire small?

Steve

"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
...
>
> > I have never met a Dutch person who does not speak prefect
> > English.
>
> I suppose that you've never gone into a small town and try to strike up
> a conversation with the local grocer :-). I know what you mean, though.
> When I go back to visit and go into a store, I'll speak Dutch to the
> clerk. More often than not, they'll answer me in English. It seems that
> I've developed a noticable American accent. It really ticks me off,
> though :-).
>
> Tony V.
>
I have few Dutch experiences, however, I found them somewhat generous and
kind. When we moved from Turkey back to the UK, we drove our Westfalia van
through Europe. The fuel gauge was giving me some fits and sure enough, we
ran out of fuel about 15 kilometers outside of the next town in the
Netherlands, still indicating 1/3 tank. I found an open trailer
fabricator's shop and phoned for a taxi, after a bit of hand waving. A
Mercedes 300 series sedan showed up and it cost about $25US (1989) to get
into town. A 6liter plastic fuel container cost about $13US, then another
$7US to fill it up. The taxi driver felt pity I guess as the return trip to
the Westfalia was free. We topped up in town and proceeded on to Zeebrugge
for a ferry ride to the UK.

Frank Whiteley

Jack > wrote in message
...
> in article , Steve Bralla at
> wrote on 2003/11/09 20:34:
>
> >> During daylight hours, make smoke from a small fire.
> >
> > The hunter that did this in San Diego 2 weeks ago was rescued, the 300
homes
> > he burned could not be rescued.
>
> Too bad those homeowners didn't follow the recommendaions that have been
> issued for years now, and cut back the brush and trees around their homes.
>
> Do your best to contain your small signal fire, but don't be afraid to use
> one. The gunners have a saying: "Better to be judged by twelve than
carried
> by six." And that applies here, too.
>
This is an absurd comment. No matter what homeowners had done, tens of
thousands of acres would have been devasted by this hunter's selfish act.
He had no right to place many innocent people in jeopardy to cover his
stupidity and cowardice. Anyone who walks into any region should be able to
find his way out - otherwise he should not go in the first place. And, if
he really screws up, he should not ask others to pay with their lives for
his incompetence. The twelve should judge him guilty .

Ed

in article , E. A. Grens at
wrote on 2003/11/12 20:32:


> Anyone who walks into any region should be able to
> find his way out....

Let's keep it OT "Soaring", shall we?

Does your comment apply to people who fly in, too? And will you request CAP
and other rescue agencies ignore your missing aircraft should you land out?

You really should be able to handle it yourself, after all -- and if not,
we're all hoping that at least you won't have brought any matches along.



Jack

>
> Let's keep it OT "Soaring", shall we?
>
> Does your comment apply to people who fly in, too? And will you request
CAP
> and other rescue agencies ignore your missing aircraft should you land
out?
>
> You really should be able to handle it yourself, after all -- and if not,
> we're all hoping that at least you won't have brought any matches along.
>
>
>
> Jack
>
The thread was OT before I entered. But, to relate to soaring, what this
hunter did was equivalent to making a land-out into a playground filled with
children to avoid taking your chances with the adjacent trees. He didn't
give a damn who he killed as long as he was safe.

Ed

in article , E. A. Grens at
wrote on 2003/11/13 22:11:

> ...what this hunter did was equivalent to making a land-out
> into a playground filled with children to avoid taking your
> chances with the adjacent trees.

The fire ravaged people of Southern CA have our sympathies.

Can we move on now to constructive dialogue concernig the plight of the
stranded, but environmentally conscientious glider pilot?

What are your suggestions for overcast daylight signalling that do not
involve fire? No doubt some of us would like to ad a trick or two to our
repertoir.



Jack

Jack wrote:
> ...
> What are your suggestions for overcast daylight signalling that do not
> involve fire? No doubt some of us would like to ad a trick or two to our
> repertoir.
> ...

In boats, according to the French regulation, it is mandatory to have on
board some devices that generates a very visible orange smoke when fired.
If you feel concerned you can buy one of this things and carry it in your
glider. But maybe the regulation for aircrafts prohibit carrying such
flamable devices.

> What are your suggestions for overcast daylight signalling that do not
> involve fire? No doubt some of us would like to ad a trick or two to our
> repertoir.
> Jack

If the pilot in the article had been seriously injured, he not only
would not have been able to walk out but quite likely he could easily
have died prior to anyone finding him. The same ability to contact
someone for arranging crew retreival from some remote landout can
also make the difference between life and death in a serious crash.
It is a great idea to carry an ELT, and an even better idea to have
one with voice capability. But it is a misconception to believe that
the ELT signal itself will guarantee a speedy rescue. The satelites
will probably pick up the signal and (some) airliners do monitor
121.5, however it quite probably will be the next day before the CAP
starts any concerted search and rescue efforts. Getting those rescue
efforts started immediately may be much more critical.

Being able to actually talk with someone increases your chances of
a speedy retreive or rescue emensly. Which is why I reccomend the
following for anyone who flies gliders away from the vicinity of
their own airport.

Backup hand held radio (with charged batteries)
GPS (even cheap ones are fine for at least being able to give your
exact coordinates)
Cell phone (if you have one always take it)
ELT (preferably with voice capability)
Land out kit (with water, food, blanket, matches, good signal mirror,
flashlight, strobe light, bug repellent, first aid, etc.

One other item no one has ever mentioned.
12 feet of antennae cable with bnc connectors and a rubber ducky
antennae. If your radio remains operational after an accident but
the antennae cable is broken and unrepairable. Most newer radios
have a bnc connection on the back of the radio. You can unplug the
A/C antennae and plug your spare cable and rubber ducky in for
transmitting. I would also reccomend knowing the enroute ATC
frequency for your area. Airliners fly at high altitude, which
fortunately means it would be unusual to not be able to contact
another pilot for help.

M Eiler